Electrolyte For HHO Fuel - What Not To Use in Your HHO Dry Cell or HHO Generator
86Don't Ruin Your HHO Dry Cell
Your HHO Dry Cell or HHO Generator and Electrolyte
Baking Soda for Water Fuel a NO NO Part 2
Using Baking soda as an electrolyte to produce hho gas :
Empirical tests have shown that using baking soda as an electrolyte gives a false sense of security. Baking soda will not only remain baking soda in use, but also cause permanent damage to the electrode surfaces in your hho generator during its transition into sodium hydroxide.
Note Baking Soda is very dangerous to use.
Empirical tests have shown that after the gas was analyzed, there is hydrogen, some CO2, also enough CO to be lethal. There is NO oxygen produced until ALL of the carbon has been reacted from solution. It is not suitable to state that the gas produced is to be burned and not inhaled. Many "water fuel" experimenters who use baking soda are burning the gas when they are doing their experiments. Most are venting the gas into the air in the room they are in, and even those that DO burn the gas in an engine often-times have leaks in their Hydrogen on demand systems.
Baking soda will permanently damage the surface structure of stainless steel. That is why it has to be sanded or ground off, and then the cleansing and conditioning of your hho dry cell started all over again.
Baking soda does not lose potency; it decomposes as a part of the reaction during electrolysis. Some carbon binds with the electrodes and causes damage to the surface structure, the rest of the carbon binds with oxygen to produce other products of reaction during electrolysis. While it is still baking soda, it does not produce hho gas, it produces a blend of hydrogen (H2), carbon monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2). As this occurs, the baking soda is transformed into NaOH, sodium hydroxide. This is why it keeps on working, but only as the carbon is consumed does it change into hho gas.
A reliable and repeatable performance increase is not going to happen during the decomposition phase of baking soda. It will eventually stabilize, but not until all of the carbon is consumed.
If your looking to “escape” the usage of caustics by using of baking soda in your HHO Dry Cell keep reading.
Baking soda decomposes into NaOH during electrolysis; you end up with a caustic material anyway. The worst part of this is, the end users are lulled into a false sense of security, thinking that it remains safe baking soda. So they are more prone to not take proper safety precautions. And if you are using expensive stainless steel electrodes in your hho dry cell, they become damaged as the carbon will also poison the catalytic capabilities of stainless steel. Salt is also unsuitable as is battery acid. To recover the damage done to your hho generator would require a real good sanding to get rid of the surface damage and start over.
DO NOT USE BAKING SODA IN YOUR HHO GENERATOR PERIOD END OF STORY!
Further you would have to add 84 grams of baking soda (NaHCO3) to obtain the same amount of sodium as you would for 40 grams of Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). This is relevant because it is the Sodium that is driving the electrolysis process.
On electrolysis of NaHCO3, the Na+ ion will rush to the cathode and you will get:-
2Na+ + 2e- + 2H2O -----> 2NaOH + H2 and HCO3- + H2O -------> H2CO3 + OH-
Also
H2CO3 --------> H2O + CO2
Also
CO2 + 2H+ + 2e- -----> CO + H2O
Also
CO + 2H+ + 2e- ------> C + H2O
Conclusion: On adding NaHCO3 a whole range of chemical processes can take place but due to the nature of alkali metals, the one sure conclusion is that Hydroxides will be formed. DO NOT BE DECEIVED into thinking that if you make a completely safe electrolytic solution using NaHCO3 or other carbonates that you end up with a completely safe electrolytic solution after use. If one takes pH readings of the electrolytic solution over time, one can access the progress of the carbonate solution (pH will increase with increasing Alkalinity).
Using Vinegar in HHO Generators:
A common person may reason that Vinegar (a 5 to 10% solution of acetic acid) is a suitable electrolyte for DC Electrolysis to make HHO Gas. Why not? It’s cheap, sometimes cheaper then bottled water, everybody can buy it around the corner, and it is very safe you can drink it. WRONG.
It's not a good electrolyte, and you can NOT count on its stability. One of the reasons is that is not a solid with an high boiling point like the preferred KOH or NaOH, but pure Acetic Acid is a liquid, with a certain vapor pressure ( you can not smell cold KOH, wile sniffing on a bottle of cold Acetic acid may let your nose fall off, it stinks pretty strong); and it has a boiling point not much higher then water.
( Water = 100°C, Acetic Acid = 118°C ). And because many HHO Cells and hho Hydrogen Boosters are run on elevated temperatures, some above 90°C, you can imagine that besides your Hho gas, a lot of water vapor ( steam) AND also acetic acid vapors will escape such a hho generator. Thus you are loosing your electrolyte if you use Vinegar, not so with NaOH and KOH.
Further See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolbe_electrolysis The Kolbe electrolysis From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia reaction is an organic reaction named after Adolph Wilhelm Hermann Kolbe.
Acetic Acid gives Ethane gas + Carbon dioxide gas So you get an un-useful gas CO2 (it extinguish flames does not promotes explosions) and Ethane gas which is a flammable gas that will behave as a fuel. Your electrolyte, by the electrolysis process in your hho dry cell cooks and vanishes trough your engine, you'll be left with plain water, without electrolyte, resistance goes up, amps go down, hho gas production goes down, and your possible gain in MPG is pretty fast back to zero.
Using Sodium Sulfate in Your HHO Generator :
The electrolysis of an aqueous solution of sodium sulfate using inert electrodes does produces hydrogen at the cathode and oxygen at the anode, but a neutral solution of sodium sulfate remains unaltered by the electrolysis.
Cathode Reaction : 4 H2O + 4 e(-) ==> 2 H2 + 4 OH(-)
Anode Reaction : 2 H2O ==> O2 + 4 H(+) + 4 e(-)
The overall cell reaction is : 6 H2O ==> 2 H2 + O2 +4 H(+) +4 OH(-)
Sodium sulfate is much weaker than lye, so you would need much more electrolyte and it quickly turns your water into a brown/red substance. Though it does not damage the electrodes in your hho generator, it really does not look good. So the bottom line is that after all my experimentation I simply decided to stick to KOH for best production of hho gas from my HHO Dry Cell Generators. Yes it is a caustic material, but just like any object or substance that can be potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, you simply need to study up on the material you are using and be responsible and keep it out of the reach of your children. NaOH or KOH, when used as electrolyte to produce hho gas, from any type of HHO Generator is clean and will never damage your electrodes.
Part One of this HHO Generator Help Hub
I hope that this helps those who are experimenting with HHO fuel devices. For extensive study on hho generators and hho Dry Cell Design go to HHO 2u.
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Thank you for stopping by Mowag.
Koh does not damage the components of a properly built hho generator system. All electrodes should be at least 316L stainless steel. I would not recommend using "pvc tubes".
All hho generators, no matter what electrolyte being used, should have a "bubbler", also known as a scrubber in place to clean the hho gas before inducing it into the engine.
Otherwise yes the KOH could damage the engine.
Hi Larry ,
Tq for the info.
Have you tried Pottasium carbonate as I found there are saying its good not to sure. Hope you can explain.Though.
TQ
Regards
Robert 9w2MTX
Thanks Robert
Potassium carbonate is a very good electrolyte for hho production and safer to work with but the disadvantages are it is sometimes necessary to mix it with a little NaOH to draw more amps. This brings you right back to point A. caustics.
It is also much more difficult to locate a supplier.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention for further study.
this was some of the best info i've found when it comes to electrolites... and i deff. think i'm going to change my set up to a KOH solution but i do have a question how do you think that type of electrolite would interact with my small circulation pump and pvc and other rubber conections?
Won't KOH eat up the aluminum parts of your carberutor? Or does the bubbler remove all the lye out of the gases produced?
Hi 3300mc and Adam;
Sorry it took me a wile to get back.
Adam sort of answered the question about the effects of Koh.
It does eventually damage rubber parts and may effect your pump after a while, depending on what the pump is built out of.
Yes Koh in a concentrated mixture will damage aluminum, and that is exactly the purpose of the secondary bubbler/ scrubber - to remove any contaminates before the hho gas is injected into the motor.
Thank You for stopping by - Larry
What if you use Titanium plates?
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) is the proper electrolyte to be used in an Titanium Substrate HHO Cell. Potassium Hydroxide is used because it works the best with coated titanium plates as well as with all stainless steel hho dry cells and wet cell hho generators.
If you want to learn more about Titanium hho dry cells check out
Smacks Boosters newer hho generator stuff.
I used KOH and drove to California and back from the Midwest and all my Anodes were eaten away and a sludge left at the bottom of the container. Surprisingly enough the system still worked even after it blew a fuse . I believer that the Ambient Energy from the engine kept powering and creating the reaction in the gen.
Wow Chris
Let me get this straight. Was this hho generator a wet cell or dry cell ? I am assuming a wet cell generator, when you say "sludge at bottom of container".
What were you using - 316l stainless or less grade ?
And last when you say "eaten away", do you mean totally gone but the hho generator was still producing hho gas ?
there is some residual current in the cell,when off. a weak battery in effect. what you buy may not be 316L, if the silkscreen numbers are wiped off.
i needed some scientific type info on this issue, thanks. im on a quest for the real deal.. what about hydrogen peroxide? seems logical, efficient. can get 35% h2o2 online, overkill? http://reliablehho.com
Hydrogen peroxide's chemical representation is H2O2. It has uses in industry in it's purest form but the product available to most of us over-the-counter is usually only 3% hydrogen peroxide and 97% water.
It breaks down quickly when exposed to light so it generally comes in brown bottles that filter out the sun.
In a less diluted form Hydrogen Peroxide is very dangerous.
Hydrogen peroxide decomposes (disproportionates) exothermically into water and oxygen gas spontaneously:
In other words it Evaporates very quick.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_process
Hydrogen Peroxide does not react well with metals that are of the transitional metal group.
Most common HHO Dry cells and hho generators are being built with stainless steel which has several of the metals or elements of the transitional group in "table D".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_table D block
For the reasons above and many others not mentioned here Hydrogen Peroxide is Not a good catalyst for hho gas production.
By looking at the link you left hoover1 .. (HHO/ hydrogen cell electrolyte solution additive products, do's and don'ts)
I believe you already know what the best Electrolyte is. I'll leave your link up because you have some good info.
Any other input on this subject is appreciated .. Please no Spam Just to get a Link.
I was reading in the NASA article where they were testing HHO and were using Ammonia as a catalyst. Has this been tried? They claimed it produced much more HHO than other chemicals.
Verry good Infom.Ilove it.Also what is your anser To pure ammonia?? I mad my owne Units, Joe- and try cells.dond like to go over 18-20 Amps.thank you for more info.Rody.
just a thought why not use sweat as a catalyst for hho production
Hi Larry, i have a question, whether i use koh or naoh in my generator, the same problem happens, at first when the electolite is new produces good quantity of hho gas, but in ive days the water gets brownish, and the quantity o hho gas goes down dramatically, I have the ccpwm, and I see that the amps are the same. -t supposed the solution can last much more than what is happening to me. What do you think??
Thankyou
Hi Luis;
Sorry for late reply. What type of hho generator are you running - a wet cell or an hho dry cell ?
Are you using 316L stainless steel or a lower grade in your hho generator ? This does make a huge difference.
I am assuming you are not over amping.
i have a 13 plate cell kit ive got it installed,this is my first,the cell and bubbler will hold 1 gal, how much KOA should i put in this system,i did abreakin useing Naoh,please give me pounds per gal,thanks,J.R.W.
Hi John;
10% koh to water is a good mix for most hho generators.
When first starting up your hho dry cell it is best to start with a little less as each cell reacts slightly different and each chemical co. has different concentration. 1 oz. of 90% pure koh to 10 oz. water.
For more info on hho dry cells and generators try http://hho2u.com
I'm using NaOH for a few months. Is KOH better to use? Is it the same? It seems to be used interchangably?
P.S. This is the best, most recent info I've found in a long time. Keep up the great work.
Well i am from India , i am also using KOH IN MY HHO KIT, but as in India we didnt get 100% pure fuel as you people , so is only KOH is ok or i need to add something else
Thank you for stopping by.
I will try to answer both comments at one time.
Koh is found to produce "cleaner" hho gas in any hho generator, wet cell or Dry cell.
The purity of the KOH will determine the amount needed to bring your hho dry cell up to the amperage draw you desire.
You should not need to add anything more to produce clean hho gas.
Awesome hho generator help >> http:hho2u.com
i have been surfing the internet for a long time but have not been able to find any helpful information about how to prepare the electrolyte, how much soda to be added to water and after what period of time to change the electrolyte.
anyone please help me in this regard
Hi lov@hho;
Sorry for late reply - First off we do not recommend using baking soda in any hho generator; please read our articles about koh for better hho gas production.
More detailed hho generator and hydrogen on demand information can be found at http://hho2u.com -- Best hho dry cell design out there.
If you insist on using "soda" .......
How much baking soda should i put in the water for hho fuel cell ?
If you are planning to generate this HHO for catalyst use on a car (to help the gas burn more efficiently) you will want to build an electrolyzer (hho generator) that draws no more than 20 amps. Depending on your array you might actually want less than that - sometimes you have to experiment to see where you get your peak LPM (liters per minute ) of hho gas output. It could be 2 amps, could be 10, could be 20... It's also a good idea to draw the experimental power from the auto you are going to use the unit in, as the alternator and electrical system can have an effect on that optimum amperage, ie amount of baking soda.
Rest of this hho generator info > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=200806
Which hh0 cell is c0mpatible with K0H??? and can it drives the 1000cc car??? h0w much plates that cell will contain?? Reply s0on..
Which hh0 cell is c0mpatible with K0H??? and can it drives the 1000cc car??? h0w much plates that cell will contain?? Reply s0on..
Hi Munir
The standard formula for best performance when using a Hydrogen on Demand system to improve gas mileage is -- 1/4 to 1/2 LPM ( liter per minute ) of hho gas per liter of motor size. 1000cc is equivalent to one liter.
The Dry Cell hho generator is much more energy efficient than a wet cell hho generator for many reasons.
More info. on this can be found here
"http://www.hho2u.com/COMPLETE_DRY_CELL_Kit.html" COMPLETE HHO DRY CELL Kit
Have you ever heard of using sulfuric acid as and electrolyte? Diluted would it be ok to use? Also I have seen some generators that use no electrolyte at all. Will this actually work?
citric acid
what about with citric acid as a electrolyte ??
can you give me an answer
sorry for the bad english
Thank you for stopping by our hho hubs Milanc;
Citric acid is indeed a very clean electrolyte, however as far as huge hho production it falls low on the list of best catalyst.
Years ago we experimented with citric acid as electrolyte with various hho wet cell generators; honestly we have not run experimentation on the hho dry cell to calculate production of hho gas (LPMs)
Perhaps in the near future we will run these test and post video of the production of hho gas with a dry cell hho generator using citric acid.
Anyone out there using citric acid in there hho dry cell ??
Please feel free to contact http://hho2u.com
Can You tell me, how is freezing problem solved?
which system is more efficient 2x11 plates or 1x 21 plates?
or any other configuration
I do own Mack semi with 12L engine 460 HP, that means optimal would be 6 LPM of HHO. So, how many generators do I need? And how many Amps I can safely use not to strain alternator to much?
And one more thing.
What about hybrid vehicles. I do own Lexus RX 450h. The engine shuts down when stop or running below 35 MPH. I believe that HHO system should be hooked up to wires which start the engine, not to ignition key or power button. Otherwise I'm gonna have production without consumption firs and delayed non controlled consumption of non controlled amount of HHO. Am I right?
Explain, please
Potassium Carbonate In Your HHO Dry Cell
I thought it a good Idea to add to this article based on a question about potassium carbonate for use in Hydrogen generators.
Potassium Carbonate is actually a very good electrolyte to use when trying to produce hho gas from any type of hho generator wither it be a wet cell design or hho dry cell. It is more safe to handle but more difficult to procure. For this reason most experienced hho experimenters are using KOH - Potassium Hydroxide in their Hho Generators. If handled with care it is at this time been found to be the best catalyst for producing clean hho gas that is readily available.
Today potassium carbonate is prepared commercially by the electrolysis of potassium chloride. The resulting potassium hydroxide is then carbonated using carbon dioxide to form potassium carbonate, which is often used to produce other potassium compounds.
2KOH + CO2 ? K2CO3 + H2O
It is mixed with distilled water to make a safer electrolyte for oxyhydrogen production than potassium hydroxide, the more commonly used electrolyte.
1. Potassium Hydroxide - KOH
* Advantages:
* Electrodes stay clean
* 95 - 100% pure HHO (hydrogen - oxygen) gas production with the right generator design
* Strong and pure electrolyte
* Disadvantages:
* Not available everywhere
* Somewhat dangerous to work with
* Recommended as a very good electrolyte to work with (recommended by Honda in 2001).
2. Potassium Carbonate - K2CO3
* Advantages:
o Maximum HHO gas production
o Very pure HHO gas production with the right generator design
o Efficient
o Works great with bottled natural mineral water
o Safe to work with
* Disadvantages:
o It is possible (sometimes necessary) to mix it with a little NaOH to draw more amps
3. Winter Electrolyte
* Mix Water + Ethyl Glycol + KOH to provide the benefit of a low freezing point but high boiling point at the same time.
HHO Generator Resources
- Hydrogen Generators_HHO DRY CELL Kit_HHO Dry Cell
Best HHO DRY CELL Generators,Complete HHO DRY CELL Kit. Learn what Hydrogen on demand will and will not do for you.
Mowag 23 months ago
Hi, I'm from Belgium and I'm also testing with HHO generators. This text containsd a lot of extra info I didn't have till now. Thanks!
But, because my english is not as well as yours I had a few questions:
1.Sodium sulfate is that: NaCl?
2.Your recommanded electrolite's, KOH and NaOH, do not dammage the generator you say. Can they dammage the PVC tubes, the silocone and the engine?